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GODZINA ZERO #208: ARLETA BOJKE I ANDRZEJ POCZOBUT — Transcript · YTtoTranscript

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GODZINA ZERO #208: ARLETA BOJKE I ANDRZEJ POCZOBUT

Kanał Zero · 19,062 words · 95 min read · EN

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Below is the complete, readable transcript of GODZINA ZERO #208: ARLETA BOJKE I ANDRZEJ POCZOBUT by Kanał Zero on YouTube. Read the full text, copy any part you need, or generate a transcript for any video with our free tool.

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Good evening. A very warm welcome. The guest of the zero hour is Andrzej Poczobud, a journalist and activist of the Union of Poles in Belarus. I don't know if the order matters to you. I never asked you about that. I mean, good evening first of all , and in order, well, I always

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think of myself as a journalist. Well, first of all, but this union component is also very important, obviously. And were you imprisoned because you are a journalist or because you are an activist of the Union of Poles in Belarus? I think that for the whole thing, but by accident, also those Poles, from the Polish Union who

are not journalists, were imprisoned. I mean, yes, yes, yes, no doubt about it, but in my case it all mattered. I mean, I think that if there were no such option, I wouldn't have ended up in prison after 20 years . I remember 2020 and the large protests in Belarus, when I talked to you more than once, you were commenting on

these protests for the Polish media while being in Grodno the whole time, and everyone was telling you then , why don't you leave? Do you know that you will be arrested sooner or later anyway and it is as if you were waiting until you end up in prison. I mean, I wasn't waiting to go

to jail, I was just doing my job. Well, that's it. Well, I don't know if that's all, or as much as that, because this is from my point of view, of course, but considering that I don't have your experience, I have a limited right to ask these questions, but for me it's always a question of whether a

specific person, in this case you, is able to do more without being in Belarus or being in prison in Belarus. But enough people outside Belarus work for the Union of Poles. And I think that one more person, yes, I mean, there is always some additional help, but in my opinion, being in Belarus, not

necessarily being in prison, but as my trip showed, among other things, this person can also do a lot there. Today, another 25 political prisoners were released from Belarusian prisons. Two Belarusian companies are therefore no longer or will not be covered by US sanctions. This is another stage in these American- Belarusian or American-Lukashenko negotiations,

because the Americans are not negotiating with all of Belarus, only with Alexander Lukashenko. This is one company that produces paints, the other one produces furniture. I remember you saying when you were released from prison in 2011 about human trafficking. This is human trafficking again. I mean, to put it mildly, the situation in

11 and the situation in 26 are very fundamentally different. In 1911, it was an authoritarian regime and there was much more room for maneuver for the West, for people who were inside Belarus, for social organizations, for the Union of Poles in Belarus, but also for some political opposition. Well, 26 is a completely different

situation. We have a totalitarian state without five minutes and this is, as it were, this also determines the search for completely different approaches to the Lukashenko regime, to Belarus, and I think that we should appreciate the fact that the Americans manage to free political prisoners. I think that today is a great day for

25 people, but also for their families, and the admiration we hear about Trump's special envoy to Belarus, John Cole, is absolutely understandable. Hundreds of other prisoners and hundreds of other families are also waiting for this, so I appreciate the importance of what happened today. But don't you and many other Belarusian journalists and politicians

who have been saying for years that Lukashenko is trafficking in people, that he is locking people up in prison in order to then trade them? Don't you feel like you're being held hostage by what you said back then? Well, following this logic, you too have become a living commodity. I mean, but I say, well, the issue, the issue is also

that since 1920, far- reaching changes have taken place and the formulations that were current then and the criticism that was current in that situation, let's say. Well, today the situation has changed. There is a different regime and you have to talk to it differently. And to pursue a different policy towards him. and there

are completely different stimuli, so I would not compare these two statements, because they were defined in a completely different, different situation . So you don't feel like you 've become a tool in someone's hands. The point is that in the situation in which the Union of Poles in Belarus found itself in 1921, it was certainly

not about achieving anything in 1926 . Well, with all due respect to the capabilities of the KGB, the regime and so on, they don't predict how the situation will develop that far. So in 2021, when the proceedings against the Union of Poles in Belarus were initiated, the authorities wanted to very quickly get rid of

the activists of the Union of Poles and the leadership of the Union of Poles in Belarus from the territory of Belarus. And I want to remind you that the offer to leave was made two months after the arrest and some of the management took advantage of this offer and were deported to Poland. And it was a scenario, because it

was not a result of the negotiations, but in reality it was the implementation of a scenario that the Belarusian authorities had come up with. That's why that's why it was like that and that was the purpose of these actions. Apart from that, they wanted to completely destroy the Union of Poles, so that

this organisation would cease to exist. For this, the leadership had to be thrown out of the country, and the people who would run the business had to be put in prison and then thrown out of the country one by one, following in our footsteps. yyy it didn't work out. Well, well, and in my opinion this is the

main thing in this whole story. Just to be clear, it's not like I think that anyone should be in prison because they can't let Łukaszka traffic people. And it is certainly a great happiness for anyone who can leave a Belarusian prison . But isn't this just another vicious circle where even though these methods

are now more brutal, which we've been observing for over 30 years, Lukashenko, even though he's becoming more brutal, still uses the same methods of putting people in prison and then exchanging them for the removal of sanctions. I mean, well, but the issue is also that the sanctions were introduced because people found themselves in

prison. when people leave prison. Well, it seems to me that the grounds for why the sanctions were introduced do not exist, so it seems natural to me that these sanctions are being withdrawn. So who wins here? Well, let the people win. Only if he puts people in prison one after another, lets them out with one hand and locks them up with the other, then it is

or can be an illusion. I mean, but this is this is the fundamental problem. Previously, the initiation of dialogue with the West resulted in the abandonment of repression, the absence of repression at that time, and the non- expansion of the number of political prisoners. Now we see that this principle does not work,

but I say, well, this also shows that the situation is different. Today, almost 5,000 people have been recognized as political prisoners since 2022, since 2020 . At the moment there are less than 900 people in Belarusian prisons , probably 886, if I remember correctly. So people are being detained all the time, even though 25 people

have been released now, but there were such exchanges, I mean, there were situations like that before, because when you were leaving prison, you didn't leave it in a large group, but there were buses of people being released. Do you think there is a chance that at some point there will be zero political prisoners? I

mean, this is a very difficult question, because we see that despite the fact that dialogue is being conducted, despite the fact that Lukashenko wants to warm relations with the West, the repression is still continuing. And Alexander Lukashenko and the Belarusian regime have a great trauma in 1920, when society suddenly rebelled against him,

suddenly, suddenly turned against him and he has no trust in the society of Bezhi. He is in complete control of the situation in Belarus. There is no doubt about that. And he talked about it today, among other things, or yesterday in a conversation with Trump's envoy, Kole, he talked about it, that he doesn't need

any additional political prisoners, that it's not true there, and so on and so forth. because he is in full control of the situation, but we see that these repressions are still going on, so if they are still going on, then they are needed for something . In my opinion, they are needed to maintain a high level of fear

in society, because fear paralyzes the will and makes society submissive. We posted a preview of our interview with you here and also encouraged our viewers to write questions for you. One of the questions was that in Poland, during the communist era, people went for walks during the news and whether there was something like that in Belarus as

well. On the one hand, this requires courage, but on the other hand, it is not such an open political declaration to go for a walk during the main edition of a news or pseudo-news program. I mean, it seems to me that these are my impressions after a week's stay in Belarus, that the

impact of Belarusian propaganda is very low and this is also the reason why repression is maintained. Because if this propaganda were effective, if these propagandists who are spreading views there, are spreading opinions that the Belarusian regime is repeating, if they were effective, there would be no need to use repression. The fact that repression still

has to be used is simply an assessment of the fact that this propaganda simply does not work. When it comes to various forms of opposition, society in Belarus has been pacified. Active people were pushed abroad. Those who stayed have actually adapted to what is. And they wait that maybe something will happen that will bring

a little more freedom, that things will be a little better, but I have n't noticed any kind of opposition in society, because the regime reacts to every manifestation and sometimes it doesn't have to be some spectacular gesture. Suspicions are enough, and then they start checking whether this person was somewhere in the 20s, whether he was not recorded

on thousands of kilometers there, I don't know, tapes and there is no evidence collected against him. whether there is no information on his phone or whether he is signed to some, I don't know, portal or whether he watches some portal and so on, and such minor offenses can cause very dramatic consequences for these people

and this causes society to be afraid and society is so pacified. You failed to pacify. You said from the beginning, when you crossed the Polish border, that you would return to Belarus. Most political prisoners who are released from Belarusian prisons are immediately deported abroad. And more often also without documents. You just have a passport and they are

not returning to Belarus. You, to put it colloquially, insisted on coming back, even though everyone advised you against it, asked you not to, including me, but you went and arrived at the border and what did you say? Here I am. They already knew you by face. I mean, I handed over my passport for

inspection. Well, of course, when the data was entered, all the red lights that they have there went on. And after a while, the captain of the Border Guard showed up and said that I had to go with him for an interview and that I had to take my phone with me. I say that yes, I have the phone with me

. There is only one problem. It's blocked and I can't unblock it. So we came, the question was when and I'm leaving. I think this was the first question, as far as I remember. I say that this is a strange question, because I only come here. And generally speaking, I'm here to stay.

And later, later, there was also another question about the phone. I said that I would not voluntarily give up the phone, but they could take it away from me using all the procedural rules provided by law, but I also said that I would not voluntarily unblock the phone . Well, later the phone rang,

the cell phone of one of those sad gentlemen. So he went out there after some time, came back, then went out again, then he introduced himself as a captain of the KGB Border Guard. Two were in Border Guard uniforms , one was in civilian clothes. I understand that he represented some kind of secret service, but

unspecified. I don't know, I guess it was maybe the KGB. I bet it was the KGB, but I don't know. So, he was the most important person who was there, but I mean, no, the conversation with me there didn't work out for them, because, well, you're trained. Exactly. And it lasted my entire presence in that room, about 10

minutes. Well, later they said I could go . So I went. How long do you think they waited for your arrival, because it was announced, even if not necessarily with a date? I mean, they knew I was coming. I think that as far as they are concerned, they know my character well, because they have been

observing me for so many years, so they had no doubt that I would try to leave. Well, this and that happened. Well, I'm very happy that my whole trip took place, that I could see my parents, I saw my father after many years and I visited the structures of the Polish Association. I was able to talk to people I have

known for many, many years. I can assess the condition of the association and what its activities look like under the new conditions. This is very necessary knowledge for me. Do you think that, continuing this thread of services, that they are the Belarusian, Grodno KGB, actually even, that when they found out you were crossing the border, they

grabbed their heads and thought, oh my, this Poczobud is back again and now we have him on our hands again. There were 5 years of peace, and now we have to watch over it again. Well, [snort] I don't think that my appearance in the KGB caused such strong emotions . These were certainly

very strong emotions among people involved in Belarusian propaganda. because a lot of different kinds of lampoons appeared there. And it was like, well, it seemed to me like such helplessness, because such rage was helpless. I'm going, there's some decision, I understand it's from above, that no one bothers me and no one creates

obstacles for me. And for the people who are the faces of propaganda there, well, they treated it very personally. Um, have any shows appeared about you? I mean, yes, well, there were performances by leading propaganda people there and they spread all sorts of insinuations and theories. But how could they criticize you for returning to the country of

which you are a citizen? I mean, they were rather criticizing me. Well, yes. I mean , yes, yes, that's how I would put it, that's how I would put it, because I've been following it with interest, because it's also a certain sign, a certain diagnosis that allows us to make a diagnosis of the situation, because it's

obvious that inside the pyramid of Belarusian power, which seems so uniform on the outside, yes, inside there are different opinions. And this policy that is currently being pursued and which is, well, this dialogue with the United States and the announcement of dialogue in general with the West, not everyone likes it inside the regime. Well, there are

people who made a name for themselves on the basis of repression. There are people who are very much involved in repression. And this part of the security apparatus is very, very interested in ensuring that this level of fear is maintained, first of all, and that they have a job. And then there is another part, which

is traditionally interested in ensuring that the Belarusian economy functions dynamically and serves as a basis for extending Lukashenko's rule. e, economic stability is such a basis for this, this, this, this regime. And in a situation where Lukashenko feels threatened, he, of course, listens first and foremost to the siloviki, and precisely to those people who

call for the merciless extermination of all manifestations of independent thought in Belarus. And in a situation where this government is already stable, then it starts to listen to people who talk about the economy and about how the direct consequence of repression is the limitation of cooperation, among others, with the West, in which

Belarus is very interested in this cooperation, but not to balance any Russian influence there, but to maintain the internal stability of the regime and for this power to be, as it were, unlimited in time, and did you feel that you were constantly being watched during this week in Belarus? I mean [sigh] once when I came home, I don't know,

very quickly, I hadn't even unpacked my suitcase and he already showed up. And the police officer rang the doorbell with the recorder on. He started asking me again when I was leaving. Well, I mean, I only came for a second. Well, where am I supposed to go? Firstly, they were curious, secondly, they were curious where I work, er, what my

phone number is. And that was the kind of questions they asked. So I had a short conversation. He told me that he generally cares about all the residents here and that his appearance should not be taken personally. Well, later I see through the window that he left our cage. he went to the car

where the sad men, no longer in uniform, were sitting and he told them something. Then, after a few minutes, he comes back , the recorder is no longer on , he just tells me that I have to report the next day, and on Thursday, the conversation on Tuesday was that I have to

report to the police station at 12:00 on Thursday , that they want to talk to me there . I say, "Well, okay, I'll be there on Thursday at 12:00." Yes, such [clears throat] is what the law provides, it is necessary. Yes. I mean, as a person who is convicted of serious crimes, I mean,

I have a special attitude. This means that I had a criminal record. Well, also, because he didn't tell me that it was about the inspection of the execution of sentences, but I assumed so when he said it, that it was about the inspection. execution of sentences and accordingly in such situations one should appear. The

law provides that you must appear. I say okay, I'll show up . Well, on Wednesday morning I went to the consulate, had a conversation with the consul, and when I went there, my wife said they called my home phone and said I didn't have to go anywhere , that the people there were busy with

other things, and generally, there were no questions for me . Dot. And then I

had no such direct or indirect contacts with the services. I traveled wherever I wanted, I went there, I was in branches of the Polish Union, I visited activists of the Polish Union from big cities, there Minsk, Brest and so on, through small towns, through and as if I didn't feel like I was being watched. I don't know if I

was being watched or not . I don't know, but I didn't feel or see any observation or tail following me . This may be black humor, but I was thinking that, considering it's no secret that you're flying to the United States next week and will be meeting with representatives of the American authorities there. That, and considering

the deals that Alexander Lukashenko is making with Washington, they should actually be watching over you so that you don't accidentally trip over the curb and hurt yourself, so that you're not on their radar. I mean, I didn't have the feeling that I was being watched over in any way . protected also not from curbs

protected also not like well I felt that I could travel I could meet and the Belarusian services did not take any offensive or hostile actions against me what did you feel when you crossed the border and stood on this Belarusian land that you had not actually seen for 5 years only from behind bars and I don't know what

your transport to the Polish border looked like after your release But I understand that you were transported directly from Novopolotsk to the Belarusian-Polish border. Well, I was driving a car then. There were people wearing balaclavas sitting around. And one person didn't have one, who tried to have a conversation with me there . Well, they were

Kadba officers. Well, that's what my journey from Nowopolotsk to the Białowieża Forest looked like, and there they put you at the border. You passed Belarusian inspection. There was no Belarusian control. Well, I was subjected to inspection in the camp. So a full search took place when leaving the camp. Did the Polish services check you, or did the

Prime Minister greet you immediately? I mean, I passed the doctor and I left all the things I had with me at the border. So you were simply transported across the border in some special way . That is, it was a closed passage that was opened in order to exchange, to make this exchange, because I want to

remind you that the exchange was five for five and I was exchanged for the Russian archaeologist Bucagin. That was the first exchange and later five more, four more such exchanges were made when personnel were exchanged. On one side a man crossed the border and on the other side. Yes. I remember that these were citizens of a

total of five countries, so it was a very complex transaction. Exactly. This is how I understand it, as if each persona, each individual was a separate story and each exchange was, in fact, a separate story. And this was nailed together and made. Okay , so you were transported by gentlemen in balaclavas. We

will return to Novopolotsk, but now that you have crossed the border with Belarus, through a normal , open border crossing, you have crossed these borders, you have set foot on Belarusian soil, in the Grodno region, how much has this land changed in these 5 years that you have not seen it, how has it

changed for you? How can you describe your emotions? I mean, I was very happy that I was going to Grodno, coming back home, and seeing my parents. I mean, I was very happy, but obviously, 5 years is a long time, and of course, changes have taken place, and the city of Ogrodno has changed, and the

roads look different in some places , so these changes have taken place, and these changes always speak of the fact that these 5 years were a very long time, and I did n't always realize in the camp how much time 5 years are, because in the camp, you live in one day, which is

constantly repeating, and this feeling of time only appears when I saw my son, how much he has grown, and only then did I realize how much time these 5 years were. Your son, whom I remember from 2011, when you were released from prison, you were sentenced to a suspended sentence for defaming Alexander Lukashenko.

You were leaving the court in Grodno. I remember because I was there at the time and you were taking a little boy into your arms. He's now, I don't know, a head taller than you. Yes, 190. So it looks like this too. It might not be the head. I mean, back when I was 21, I was still

able to put him on my back and carry him. Well, now I guess he was already carrying me out. You saw the most of him these 5 years. Yes. And what did he tell you? I mean, he was also very, very moved , because he didn't recognize me. I mean, the point is

that I was there, to put it mildly, emaciated and it was as if he didn't recognize me. Well, we have these photos from prison. This was a few days after he left the hospital from prison. A few days after you left prison, when I visited you in the hospital, we can even show them what you looked like then, but now

you look much better. We are very happy about it, but he didn't recognize you and said, I mean, he stood there frozen, I don't know, because he was trying to translate into his own something that was unimaginable, as if not. Well, these are the photos where you also greet other prisoners you met on your prison

path. Exactly, exactly. That's it, that was in the hospital. Well, you know, when I arrived at the border and found myself in an office with sad men again, I had this impression, I mean, you know, that this prisoner regime in me was activated very quickly, you know. Yes, hop, you know, like some button pressed.

In all my behavior I am already behaving exactly as I used to. in the camp, and later when I feel like I ca n't, they say you can go, I leave, we get in the car and go. And there is euphoria. So, from one of these, well, it would be such a quick

switch and at some point it seemed to me that, God, those 130 days that I was free, well, it was like a dream at least. Did you cry when you saw your parents, when you saw Jarek? I mean, generally, I try to, I was raised in such a way that boys don't cry. No,

you know, but it varies. I saw you in the hospital back then, and I also saw those gentlemen who had also been through prison and who met you, that they had tears in their eyes when they talked to you. I mean, I was definitely very touched. And what did your mother tell you? I mean, they

were glad that I came and that nothing happened to me. And generally they were worried that I was in Belarus. They were worried that you wouldn't make it across the border and would be taken straight back to prison. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Will you share at least one of the sentences you heard from your parents after

they saw the whole thing? They, they, they said that it was very good, and so on. Well, a lot of emotions. Lots and lots of emotions. So mom was crying. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. You, boys don't cry. Jesus, and mom was crying. And dad, boys don't cry either? NO. So you still have to mature into this? I

mean, maybe, but you know, apparently with age one becomes more sensitive. I've heard that opinion, but you haven't confirmed it yet. I mean, not yet, maybe I haven't reached that age yet. Before I persuade you to go back to Novopolotsk, tell me, is there anything you saw that was more important than people, besides your son, you have a son

and a daughter too, just to be clear, the daughter is older, the son is younger. What did the passage of time show you when you arrived in Grodno? Listen, you know, the city center has changed. Um, new buildings have been built, the place where I live is also being developed, uh, new housing estates have been built, the

roads look different. So, it was also visible that these 5 years had left a very lasting mark in December. And generally in Belarus, an additional bridge was opened over the Niemy, and there are changes, in the infrastructure, that is. But when it comes to the social mood, when it comes to the atmosphere, the atmosphere is such that the

authorities seem to be in full control of the situation. This is what it looks like. Yeah. And people are very afraid. I was in prison with a Turkman. And me, I'm fascinated and curious about various forms of totalitarianism, so I've always wanted to go to Turkmenistan, and now I feel like Turkmenistan has come to me

. I invite TV Zero viewers to take a short break now, but we are still here , we are still talking, and we are still on the YouTube channel. Of the places you visited in Grodno, which was the most important to you? I mean, not only in Grodno, in Belarus Grodno is your home, but as you said yourself,

you have been to various places. I mean, I visited Surkaonty, this is the cemetery that the Union of Poles has been

constantly taking care of since its construction or founding in '94 or '95, I don't remember the year now. This is a place I have visited dozens of times and a place that was razed to the ground in 2022. Well, the bulldozers came and demolished the cemetery. Exactly. I was there. This will also undoubtedly

stick in my memory. So when I crossed the border, I was already in Poland and one of the first [clears throat] calls I made was to the daughter of Major Maciej Kalinkkiewicz, codename Kotwicz, who is buried there. Well, I had the honor of meeting her and we talked. Well, this one too. And you lit a candle there in the Plowed

Field. I prayed, I mean, thank God there are trees surrounding that place. It was completely razed to the ground. There is not even a trace that there was a cemetery. Uh, but uh, these trees, they mark the place where the remains of our heroes rest. [snort] There are more of these cemeteries destroyed by Lukashenko's regime.

M yes. So, in Mikuliszki there was still a ruined cemetery. In addition, two monuments were removed there, if I am not mistaken. Apart from that, various things were happening in the cemeteries. Does n't it cause some public outrage that even those who are already buried in the ground are not left in peace? I mean, there's

no doubt that in '22 it aroused great emotions. Well, today we are in the year 26, but you didn't see it in the year 22, even though you wrote about surkkats in your letters, because Oksana, your wife, published fragments, very short fragments of what you wrote. Yes. Well, when I found out about the

destruction of the cemetery in Surkąty, it was the only moment when I thought that it was good that I was in prison. Because this is a place with which I was emotionally and generally very strongly connected, a place that was a bard on TV, we are talking about the destroyed cemetery in Surkąt, a

cemetery where soldiers of the home army are still buried, at least their remains are still there . And you say that when you found out that this cemetery had been destroyed, razed to the ground, it must be your cemetery, which holds a special place in your heart, that it's good that you're in prison, because if you weren't in prison

, what would you have done? Well, I don't know what I would do, but this, but emotionally I felt like I couldn't do anything because I was in prison. Well, that was known. I knew that even if I did, I thought that I would be released in a different way , but I knew that I would

go to Sorkonty, to Surkonty. Yeah. So I went. How did you think you would get fired? It means I'll get out, my term will end and I'll leave prison. Oh yes, that's what I thought it would be like. You must have had dozens of signals that negotiations were underway in your case. Yes.

And they came to you and said: "Here's a piece of paper, sign it because we don't want to see you." I mean, it's not that I never allowed any offers to be submitted to me. If there were any hints that they wanted to talk to me, I did n't want to talk to them at all,

because why didn't I have any conversations with the prison service about the release? It always ended with me saying that it was my sentence, I would serve my sentence and I didn't need anything from them. Also because that's how it was. And they what? Well, nothing. And they kept me in solitary confinement. Well, in the corcer and in PKT. And that is the

reason why PKT is, that is, in the conditions of a cell, or a prison within the camp, where prisoners are held who are considered not to be willing to undergo resocialization, i.e. who create educational problems. So I was kept there all the time. As long as I was in Novopolotsk, I was there.

Well, this is a place that people in the camp are usually afraid of. Because you are isolated from the rest, you can't talk to anyone. I mean, because the conditions are very difficult. These are the most difficult conditions that can be created within the camp. Can you describe what solitary confinement looks like, what are the

conditions that everyone fears? I say, well, for summer I lived with an open window, which sometimes could be hung with a towel, and sometimes not. And in winter, no matter how cold it was, this window remained open. I mean, is it cold? In addition, you are deprived of the possibility of receiving normal parcels from home,

i.e. 50 kg there or 30 kg there. I don't remember these numbers anymore because I didn't receive any parcel . So all the time or just these two years? and during these two years, when and when, I mean we are talking about Nowopock now, that is, and that is, during these two years I was

in a remand prison and then I received parcels as if it were, it was normal and I was held in such, in conditions that were not fundamentally different from the conditions in which other prisoners are held. When my sentence became final and I was sent to Novopolotsk, special conditions had already been created there

. I was kept all the time in the most difficult conditions possible. And so it was during the three years that I was in Novopolotsk. And during these three years I never received a normal parcel from home . I received it, it's called a banderol, or up to two 2 kg parcels could be sent once every six months. This

is something that, according to Belarusian legislation, a prisoner cannot be deprived of, and I was deprived of the rest. And this is precisely the reaction of the prison service to a situation when someone does not want to treat them. Solitary confinement is like a large room. And that means it's a cell. It can be

bigger, it can be smaller, but the basis, I mean the biggest difficulty that you have there, is that you have neither a pillow, you have neither a blanket, nor a mattress. Oh, and it's terribly cold. at night if it's winter time, or if it's winter or the most difficult period, it's between seasons when it's still cold and the

heating is already turned off, then you simply can't even sleep normally there because you wake up every now and then cold and shivering and you have to move and warm up all the time. But [snort] can you even lie down there during the day? No, no, no. This, this is not possible in the PKT, nor

in solitary confinement. You have to stand, sit, stand, walk, but you can't lie down. This means that it is a violation of the regulations and immediately results in an extension, which means it may result in an extension of the penalty. And are they watching you all the time? Yes, there is a camera in the cell, there is a camera in every cell

. And when you lie down, what happens? I mean, nothing may happen, or there may be an immediate reaction. It depends on the situation of a particular prisoner and whether the administration plans to extend his stay. The point is that the basis of this system is that a person is supposed to be

incapacitated. Well, if he obeys the authorities, then the authorities may turn a blind eye to any of his violations. But if he does not obey, then the authorities will punish him, regardless of whether he committed an offense or not . The essence of education in the Belarusian camp is that a citizen must be obedient.

But it may happen that you lie down and they come in and beat you. So the hardest period in Novopolotsk was when the commander was a colonel named Palczyk. Well, I didn't stay that period. I came to Novopolotsk, there had already been a change of leadership and there was no more beating of political prisoners. So I have never

encountered a situation where I was present or saw any political prisoner being beaten, but there were situations when I heard criminal prisoners being beaten. That's what I heard, because in 2020, when they detained people, when they left, even after two days, they were all in Sieniaki. Yes exactly. Well, the most traumatic period traditionally in

Belarus is from the moment of arrest until the moment a person is sent to prison, to this camp, to a penal colony. That is, not to a penal colony, to a detention center. Various things may take place during this period. And then when a person is, I mean, it was like that , when a person is in

prison, well, well, there were certain restrictions. These restrictions in Novopolotsk during Palczyk's time, they were completely different. People were actually beaten there. I've heard about various accidents, but I'm saying that I didn't see it myself , so I don't want to repeat something I didn't see. But I heard it from conversations, not necessarily

in front of the camera, and I don't necessarily want to say who, but I heard conversations like that, for example, where they show you, here's a picture of your son, and they show it to you and say: "You know, because if you don't want to talk to us, you know, you know, it's your son, he

could, for example, get hit by a bus." I mean, I think that the Diabor services used different tactics. No similar threats were made against me. I mean, I wasn't threatened that something would happen to my wife. But it was also the case that at the moment of arrest, when I was still in

prison with a better one in Walodarka, I was handed over by a lawyer, right? Because it was the first prison I was sent to. Um, I told my wife through my lawyer that if she felt there was any threat and so on, she was to take the children and go to Poland. And

that he shouldn't worry about Monnie. I think they heard it too. And how many times did you see each other during the five years when you were first in those pre-trial detention centers, then, because you were in several of them, because you were in Grodno during the trial, and I think you were in two in Minsk

, right? If I remember correctly. Only then the penal colony in Nowopałock, which is probably the harshest in Belarus. How many times have you seen each other in these 5 years ? That means two years while the investigation was ongoing there was no visitation permission. Later, after the judgment became final, there were two months for which

permission to meet was granted. We had several meetings during these two months and then from the moment the sentence became final until my release from prison there were no visits. So you can count these meetings on your fingers. Yes, yes, yes. It wasn't, it wasn't a large number of meetings. Apart from that it was a

short period. Or is it several months from the moment of the verdict until the verdict became final, and during that time they gave me permissions, because I was there at the beginning and the decision was made by the Grodno District Court at the beginning, and later the Supreme Court and judges gave permissions for visits.

M so for d years you first didn't see each other, and then at the end you also didn't see each other for d years. We didn't see each other for three years after that . Yes exactly. Did the letters arrive at all? Yes, letters, letters arrived and apparently not all of them and apparently you

couldn't write in Polish. Yes, yes. From the moment when it means, well, because it was also a war for the Polish language, because it means in accordance with the law until the judgment becomes final, I have the right to use my native language. And I was arrested with my son. I always speak Polish. So

I wrote the letters in Polish. They didn't hit. When I realized that they were not being delivered, I started to complain about it and the first thing I learned from my lawyer, I mean from my lawyer, that the letters were not being delivered. Apart from the fact that she, I mean I, asked if Jarek

had received the letters. Well, my wife wrote that they didn't arrive. So I started complaining about it. Of course, to put it mildly, this did not cause any enthusiasm among the Prison Guard, which is why I complained. Well, then I complained higher, i.e. to the Department of Execution of Sentences. from Wołodarka such a complaint did not reach to do, I

mean, because I complained about Wołodarka, that is, about season number 1. I filed such a complaint while still in season number 1. Later they throw me in the prison in Żodzina and from the prison, I mean, and I see that there is no reaction. I assume that the water department administration did not forward this complaint and that once in the government,

it will write a complaint to the Department of Execution of Sentences and this complaint will be published. It's not about the Wrzodzie prison, it's about prison number 1 and she kind of gets out of prison and then gets the answer that there are no restrictions and that my complaint is groundless. And from that moment on I can write, I mean

my letters start arriving in Polish and all the time from that moment until the sentence becomes final, until that moment I can write to my son in Polish. The judgment becomes final and ends immediately. because according to Belarusian legislation, they no longer have to translate my letters, but I have to use the

state language. So they said that you have to write either in Russian or in Belarusian, period, and there are no exceptions here. And then I was already using Russian. Was it harder when you were in those caravans and had no one to talk to? Was it more difficult when you were in cells where, for

example, HIV-positive patients were placed? I mean, loneliness was much more difficult because, as I said, I feel like a journalist. And in a journalistic way, I look at a person with the conviction that every person, in every person, there is something interesting. Yeah. And it's just a matter of mining and finding what's interesting. So what

is interesting about this particular man , what is his interesting story? And I built relationships with very different people, with different characters. Well, I dealt with it. For me, a very good period was when I was sitting in a cell in the basement in Wolodarka. It was very difficult considering the conditions I was in. These

were cells for 24 people and there was 1 m 10 cm of space per person. And despite the fact that you were constantly forced to queue, either to use the toilet, or to boil water, or and so on , and so on, you lived in this crowd all the time, but at the same time, because

you interacted with a large number of people, and these people changed, because it was a pre-trial prison. Someone goes to court, someone, someone goes to a camp, a new person comes to take their place, and all the time, and the period I was there, it flew by very quickly, regardless of the difficult conditions. Um, on the other hand, when I was

alone, the days, the hours, they seemed to get longer. The thing is that every day was similar to another day and sometimes I lost track of how much time had passed, 5 minutes had passed or 5 hours had passed. Well, because everything is the same and it has been the same for a week, for months and so

on. That was difficult. And when you talk about these human stories and about the people you met in prison, what were the most interesting human stories during those hours or hundreds of hours of conversations? Listen, very, very different characters, from people who, I don't know, stole something small and got sentenced to a man who was the

leader of one of the notorious criminal groups from the 1990s and was accused of participating in the murder of a total of six people. Well, these and these stories of these people, well, they were quite instructive, I would say, but they talked very openly, right? It is a prison after all and probably

not, but in the sense that you don't trust each other, or do you trust each other? No, no, there is always a question mark, meaning there is no one sitting there who is reporting further in exchange for some benefits. Yes, exactly. Exactly, exactly. But time passes and trust is built and apart from that,

sometimes a person feels the need to express an opinion or tell a story and so on. So, well, it's instructive and interesting to be here in this respect. If we talk about what was interesting in prison, then I will say that people were interesting in prison. And how did you know that you were

dealing with someone, that you could trust someone, because I'm guessing that for a second, I didn't trust anyone, you know? I mean , I mean, when it comes to my history, generally I have n't talked about the Union of Poles at all. I could tell a story, a lot of stories, you know, which

at some point was like, I'm telling a story, and a man who obviously cooperates with the administration asks me: "Listen, did you write about this ?" Well, because I told stories that were described by me in the media and printed. I can tell stories like these. I told such stories. And what did you ask them and does it even mean

listen, well, I kind of didn't mean I avoided the situation in which I was asking the question, but I was a very attentive listener. Yes, I would say so. And because I was an attentive listener, people often wanted to tell me something, but I tried not to ask questions, because I was fighting this journalistic addiction

to asking questions, because, well, most likely there was a wiretap. And these questions that I can't seem to ask, they can cause a person to say something and then harm will come to him. And I mean , I didn't think I had to help the Prison Guard uncover any secrets, but on the other hand, if someone told me something, I

listened to it with curiosity. So you didn't sit around and tell each other what a terrible person Alexander Grygoryevich Lukashenko is. I mean, not Lukashenko, I mean, listen, there was a moment when [snort] I was telling jokes about Lukashenko, for example . Well, tell me some, I mean, I can't, I can tell you. So the

end of the world is coming. God calls presidents. His stories are about Abam, Pucin and Łukaszko. So God calls upon presidents. And he says that, gentlemen, it's the end of the world. Calm the people, let the people prepare for this . And there is President Obama's address. He says, "Americans, I have two news for you. One is good and the

other is bad. The good news is that God really exists, and the bad news is that tomorrow is the end of the world." Putin comes forward with a message and says: "Russians, I have two pieces of bad news for you. First, God really exists. Second, tomorrow is the end of the world. And then

Alexander Grygorwicz comes forward and says: "Belarusians, I have two pieces of good news for you. First, God recognized the legality of my choices, and second, I will rule until the end of the world." They laughed, obviously. So you weren't afraid to talk about him after all ? So it wasn't about you-know- who and that she was old? I mean, no,

no, no. Usually, usually people used that term if they were talking about Lukashenko, but generally, you avoid the topic of Alexander Lukashenko. And that's... I think that in general, in the country now, the topic of Alexander Lukashenko is taboo. Paweł Marzejka, who you know better than me, after being released from prison, a little earlier than you,

said that political prisoners were marked a bit like I had this association, of course, with the Star of David and the marking of Jews during World War II . Did you also, I don't know, wear an armband? No, no, no. It wasn't an armband. I mean, a plaque, right? Is that a patch on your clothes that

every prisoner has? For political prisoners who are Considered extremists, this patch is yellow, hence the association with the Star of David, which was also yellow on Jewish clothing during the occupation. But this caused them to treat you differently. I mean, guards and other prisoners. I mean, other prisoners, I didn't have any problems with

other prisoners. I mean, very much so, I mean, all sorts of conflicts arose there, but you know, I didn't have any problems with somehow regulating these conflicts. But when it comes to the administration, the administration treats political prisoners as people who are subjected to a special form of resocialization and there is special pressure on

them. And a political prisoner is in a very difficult situation when they end up in a camp. I know I read those numbers, so according to the Human Rights Defense Center in Jasna, the total number since 2020 is almost 5,000, almost 900 people are still in prison. But the actual number is certainly

much higher, because families have been incarcerated for a long time. They preferred that no one label their loved ones as political prisoners, so they wouldn't face worse prison conditions. It means that families don't report these convictions and don't contact human rights defenders . This stems primarily from the belief that such contacts can create problems for

the family, not only that they wo n't improve the situation, but they also believed that it wouldn't improve the situation for the person in the camp, but it could also create problems for the family. There were a lot of people in the camp who weren't on any lists of political prisoners, and um... I think that maybe now

, when these American negotiations are so actively conducted, families will start seeking contact with human rights defenders to have these people recognized as political prisoners. Or maybe not. Well, I do n't know about that either. I simply understand that this has a real impact on the everyday reality of every political prisoner, that it's better not to be a

political prisoner and just serve out the sentence than to be a political prisoner and be screwed every day. But he's screwed anyway. Every day. The crux of the matter is that, well, yyy y means yyy approach, I mean, I'll explain in a moment , the approach of the prison administration is to create an

impersonal crowd. Everyone is dressed in black, shaved, and everyone is humble, calm, and there's no personality visible. The moment a prisoner appears in Nowopłock, regardless of whether it's a criminal prisoner or a political prisoner, he stands out from the crowd. He can have his own opinion there, express his views on certain topics, people start listening to him,

or he enjoys some special respect among the other prisoners. From that moment on, he is asked to put on an armband and cooperate with the administration. As for the criminal prison, if it's a political prisoner, he will be immediately isolated in solitary confinement. And the criminal prisoner will be asked to put on an

armband and cooperate with the administration. So, his authority is based on the fact that he wears the armband, that the person, who has authority and doesn't wear an armband, she doesn't belong in this camp. He, like a political prisoner, will be sent to solitary confinement, to solitary confinement, then he'll be kept in the PKT, that is, in this prison

within the camp, and then they'll change his sentence rules and he'll be sent to a maximum- security prison. Yes. Well, because that's what it's about . The point is that authority is a matter of the prison hierarchy, not only. I mean, generally a noticeable person. The point is that this crowd should be impersonal, that all of them, the one

with the armband, should be the leader of this crowd. I mean, he should be on behalf of. I mean, there are people, I mean, this was in all camps, it was in Stalinist camps, in German camps, it was called a Kapo. Or is it a prisoner who, on behalf of the administration, performs

some functions within the camp. He can make decisions, but he must have some kind of leader's personality to be able to break through the crowd. That's also partly what it is. True. It's partly true that it was as if those people who [snort] held those positions stood out. Some of them once belonged

to the prison hierarchy, and there were various biographies of them in prison. And at some point, they simply gave up and came to the administration, put on those armbands, became kapos, and simply informed on other prisons. Isn't it even about the form of informing? It's about carrying out open acts, I mean, because I'm

sure some of them were still agents, but not all of them had to be agents there. But they cooperated with the administration on the principle of following orders and, as it were, working for, meaning helping the administration control the prisoners while inside. That's how I would put it. In that way, because I was just wondering

, that's why I started to interrupt you , because the prison administration doesn't sew on those yellow inserts, or whatever you call them, according to the Human Rights Defense Center website in Jasnej. Exactly. Only because of the article and the crime, which means crimes, so It's not the same as what we see on this website as

political prisoners, because Wiosna is also an extremist organization in Belarus. They just have their own table where they enter people as political prisoners. That's exactly what it's about. There are a number of articles, specific articles are listed . If someone was convicted under that article, they automatically get what's called a "profu ciot" (professor of a [ __ ]),

meaning they're considered an extremist. So, the fact that families, for example, don't seek help from human rights defenders is just a matter of not talking about that person, so they might have that yellow armband, but they're not, but I will be, but they'll be in this impersonal crowd. Or is she, this person,

impersonal? She blended in. I mean, I did n't have that privilege. I stood out from the very beginning. I just arrived, and everyone already knew I'd arrived at the camp. If they put pressure on you without playing the family card, how? I understand that they also adapt their methods to some psychological trait,

which They definitely had you worked out, so to speak. So then there's solitary confinement, depriving you of those large packages, only the small ones. I mean, hunger, cold, that's what I'd say. Hunger, walking, hunger, walking, building tension inside, building it up, trying to make you afraid, and so on. I mean, over those five years,

they practiced everything, from all the tools the prison service has, except for direct violence, or beatings, so I wasn't beaten. And besides, they simply got used to all the tools. And which were the worst? I mean, bearable. Listen, I understand you don't want to give them instructions now in case you end up

there again, which I absolutely don't want you to. That's why I warned you, maybe don't go to Belarus after all. But maybe you can share something with us? I mean, listen, I said that, I mean, it was a difficult experience of loneliness, and I kind of described it, I've already described it. I didn't try to

pretend it wasn't difficult, that's why That it's clearly very difficult, and this is actually the final point, when you're in a cell alone, and this and that drags on endlessly. I mean, when I was still in Rzod, in the next cell was one of the most important figures in the Belarusian criminal world

, a man who had been alone in a cell for three years, meaning he was kept in a cell. I thought it was a bit long, not three years. And in the end, it turned out to be me, too, because, because it was on and off, I spent a year alone, so at the time

I thought it was very difficult. Well, it is indeed difficult, but I somehow managed it. And there was a moment when you wanted to say, "Okay, I'll sign anything, I'll plead guilty, I'll ask Lukashenka for a pardon, as long as you let me out of here." No, there wasn't such a moment, because I

mean, there was, there was a moment when I thought this story would somehow end in prison, that this would be the last time I'd see any prisons there, no, and That's it . Well, there was a moment, but a moment when I thought I would give up, and no, there wasn't . So was there a moment when you thought you were

going to die? Yes. But you were so terribly sick. I mean, yes. And for about seven months I didn't get the heart pills I take every day. And you just felt so bad physically that you thought, well, my blood pressure was 220, and when I was taken to the doctor, my blood pressure was 220 and the doctor refused to

sign, the doctor refused to sign the consent to put me in, to extend my stay in solitary confinement. So, it was a situation where my health was like this. Year 24 was that solitary confinement marathon, when from the end of February until, I do n't remember, May 15th or 17th, I was in solitary confinement the whole time. This is the

most difficult period I mentioned, when the heating is turned off between seasons. I remember this moment. I'm standing next to the radiator. It's cold in the cells anyway, but there's a radiator next to which you can warm yourself up and This radiator is getting colder and colder. I'm thinking, God, what's it going to be like? But

I managed somehow. [snort] And those prison services, whose clear task when working with political prisoners is to break them down, when they see someone feeling worse, they press harder. I mean, it depends on the specific person and the specific situation and the goals they set for themselves. Well, back when I was in Grodno prison, I

had this opportunity, well, prison communication, to explain for a long, long time when people talk between cells. I was in a cell, and below me in the cell was a recidivist who had served a lot of time, some tubes going through, well, more or less , it means a long, long time and there's no point in explaining it now, in my opinion

, but anyway, like [clearing throat] I had the opportunity to talk to him . And he tells me, [snort] well, he told me then, listen, what happened until this moment, until the sentence becomes final, It's all nonsense and this general lack of bondage. Real prison begins when you get to the camp. That's when the

real pressure begins. And by then, I'd already been through a lot of different prisons and situations, and I listened to him in disbelief. He told me, he roughly sketched out the scenario that would be used against me, to which I replied, "Listen, I'm kind of a one-off, right?" Or is it like , well, I'm

in a special situation, right?" And he laughed and said, "Listen, we 're all special stuff here, but they don't work with special stuff, they work with the masses. They have a script. And they'll take this kind of action. This is what it will look like. And he actually wrote what I went through

and what you described, right? This unpaid crowd. Yes. Yes. I mean, he, he, he described, meaning that you come to the camp, you'll end up in solitary confinement , you'll be deprived of all your packages from home. They'll keep you in solitary confinement, it's cold there, and so on, and so on, and so on. And all these

measures that, and he tells me, listen, if you go through this, you'll end up in a maximum security prison. Then they add Article 411 to you, they add years, you end up in a prison for recidivists, and in six months you're back here in Grodno, and we'll see each other. So That's more or less how he

outlined the scenario for me. Well, that scenario wasn't fully realized, because it turned out they would be, they endlessly extended my stay in Novopolotsk in that whole PKT, that is, in the prison within the camp, because usually even there you can't talk between cells . There, I mean, Novopolotsk is very much like, well, I'm saying, this is prison

number one, and that's a lot of commitment. Exactly. The first and second. The second thing I'll say is, when I was going to Novopolotsk, I was placed in a transit cell in the Vitsk remand prison. There was a recidivist there, who was going to Głębokie prison. This is a prison for particularly dangerous

recidivists who don't respond to rehabilitation. This is, technically, the harshest prison in Belarus. These are the worst, worst conditions there. This is the worst camp. So when I heard he was going there, I said, "Listen, I feel sorry for you." He asked me where you're going? I said, "Prison number one." Nowopłock. He laughed. I said, "

Listen, you pity me, you pity yourself." I said, "That's how bad it is." He said, "I wasn't there, but you know, they won't just call it Nowopłock, Nowopłock, Nowopłock anywhere in the system." I said, "Wherever you go, you hear about Nowopłock, so it was a special prison, and next to the chemical plant, bad

air." Yes, yes, yes. I mean, but it's all nuances. Inside the prison, there was such a created atmosphere, and the influence of the administration was so strong, that I simply had the impression that flies were flying around according to the regulations, and there was no talking between cells anymore . No, no, there wasn't, there was no

talking between cells, because there 's a camera in every cell, and if someone, uh, tries to talk to someone next to them, they get retaliated against and face additional punishment. So it was clearly the worst prison, even though Piszczak Castle is Wołodarka, right? Another name for Wołodarka is the prison that remembers the January Uprising insurgents, and

apparently not much has changed there since then. Well , no, it has, because that old prison where the January Uprising insurgents were held was no longer used when I was there. So the conditions are a bit different, but this old, tattered Soviet prison was already closed, but the death penalty was carried out there

. Exactly. It was the only place in Europe, but not only in Europe, from Lisbon to Kamsiatka, where death sentences were carried out. I think that prison was closed last year , so executions were carried out there until the very end, right? And now, in prison number one, it 's near Minsk, and sentences are carried out there

. So something is constant. But you also wrote in your letters, you referred to whoever went through that Piszczołowski Castle, because that's where the January and November Uprising insurgents were. Józef Piłsudcki, you really had Feliks. Dzerzhinsky, [snort] Feliks Dzerzhinsky, you had these thoughts when you were in that Piszczołowski castle, that somehow this story really is repeating itself

. Yes, of course. When I was walking through that old corps, when they were taking us out, and this was happening, when they were taking us for a walk, I had the impression, I mean, I was thinking about what it was like back then, because there, both after the war and before the war

[clears throat], the famous Captain Józef Dąbrowski from the 13th UAN Regiment, an iconic figure of the Polish- Bolshevik War. He was killed there, right there in that whole Volodarka. He died in 1941, I think. I mean, during interrogations, they beat him so much that they broke everything that could be broken. But Sergiusz Piasecki

was also in that prison, so there are a lot of interesting stories there. And of course, the Home Army soldiers from the period 3941, that is, from the time of the Soviet occupation and Uh, from the 1944 era and beyond. Did you even have any books? I mean, the library in Włodarka was relatively good

. As for Grodno, there was a much worse library in Rzudzina, also kind of so-so . And in Novopollotsk, in the PKT, there were about 500 books there. These are Russian classics and Soviet classics, meaning Dostoyevsky, Ostrovsky, how steel was hardened, and things like that. And these Russian classics are terribly depressing, to put it

mildly, and these are books that are specially selected there. And besides that depressing atmosphere, you also have depressing books. And did you know, while you were in prison, that you were receiving awards here, that books and articles were written for you, that the European Parliament was there? Did you know all this, or were they effectively isolating you from it

? I mean, I knew to a limited extent . Or, without details, but the most important events, of course, reached me. Because I also mean that my lawyer did n't She doesn't know Polish, she didn't know Polish, so her cognitive abilities [laughter] were limited. But she talked to your family. Well, yes, yes, yes.

Who knows Polish. Well, yes. Who knows Polish and who [clears throat] there. Well, if anything got through to me, it was through this way. So you knew something, but not everything. Did n't they manage to completely isolate you from the world? I mean, but you also have to remember that a meeting with a

lawyer in a camp setting looked like this: there's glass, two telephones, and nearby, in a glass booth, an officer sits in a headset, presses a button, and says, "Can you talk, is everyone listening?" Yes. I mean, it 's recorded. And obviously, for a lawyer in a time when lawyers go to prison, it wasn't

easy and, well, difficult too. But was it important to you, and how did it even get through to you, that someone actually appreciated your fight? I mean, every piece of information that reached me and said that I'm remembered for all the things that happened in freedom , it was simply a hug from

a friend and like, "Hang in there, hang in there." So, yeah, that's how I treated it. And why did you endure all this? What are you fighting for? Listen, the grass that grows through the asphalt, why does it grow? Why does it grow there? Because it's grass, right? You are grass. But you have, I think,

more thoughts than grass. Well. Well, but for a second. But like, well, because, because, because it 's grass and it grows. Because I behave this way because that's who I am. Well. Well , it's difficult. Well, I do n't know. It seems to me that's, well, normal . Your family, who probably would have preferred you to stay home for five years

. You took many different paths along the way, you had many warnings on your journalistic path, you could have written the same thing. I speak with full respect to what you chose in life, right? Um, but you could have written from Poland. Um, you could have uh, not commented, you could have taken advantage of

those later, uh, you knew there were various offers floating around. I mean, [snort] but well, somehow , well, I mean, these different choices, they don't convince me. Well, I mean, these proposals and variants, it seems to me that he's behaving correctly, and this behavior is exactly how one should behave. Andrzej Poczobut was a guest on TV

Zero. Thank you very much, but we 're still on YouTube, we're not finishing the program yet, because I mean, many people, even when they ask me, are trying to understand your choices. I understand that for you, the clearest answer might be, because that's who I am and these are my values. I just want you to

try to explain to those people who read about you , who hear about you, who maybe admire you, maybe don't admire you at all , maybe don't understand you. Is your fight, I don't know, a fight for a free Belarus? Not necessarily, I think, because you always talk about Imagine that you're Polish, although you'd probably prefer the

country you live in, the country of which you're a citizen, to be a free state. I mean, obviously, I prefer the country to be free and have democracy. That's natural. So, is the fight for democracy in Belarus worth sacrificing your life, devoting five years to watching your son grow, your children grow? I mean, you know, every person, I

mean, no, I understand, but I mean, that's what journalistic work is all about, among other things, but this, but one thing is, when in 2005 the situation arose that the union became part of the Polish Union, to which I belong, it found itself in a very difficult situation. You had to make some kind of choice: do you

cooperate with the authorities, or do you defend the organization's independence and the right to decide who leads this organization, because really, this conflict in the Polish Union was precisely about this: does the organization independently decide who leads the organization, or does the organization accept the principles that the authorities dictate who should be at the top? The head of the organization. Well, I

was among those who believed that the organization itself should decide about this, and any subsequent revelations of this conflict resulted from that decision. And courage comes to a person as problems arise and as they move forward. But apart from that, these obstacles, these retaliations, these repressions that are applied against them, they harden them, because a person who

means... and this is what distinguished me from most political prisoners, because a significant portion of these people only learned in 1920 what country they were living in and suddenly found themselves in very difficult conditions. Well, that was the difference, that for me, this history goes back a long way, from 2005. Well, starting

in 1921, it was as if the peak period of all these, um, repressions and retaliations against me began, so to put it mildly, there was some time to prepare. Of course, in 2005, I didn't realize that there would be any consequences in 1921. I thought that This situation with the union will be resolved sooner or later. Because it

seemed absurd, simply because what was happening was happening, because an organization that deals with the Polish language, education, Polish culture and places, the protection of memorials, suddenly became such a threat to the state. It was practically considered terrorist activity. Let me remind you that in 2005, television reports about the Polish Union looked

like they were showing images of planes flying over and dropping bombs on houses, burning them. And then they showed the headquarters of the Polish Union. Then they showed some Polish military unit marching in a parade. Then they showed the Polish Union again. Later, later, later they showed some commandos in action. Later they showed the

Polish Union again. Also, because that was the nature of the reports and the way the organization was presented, which I want to emphasize, absolutely such activity, which theoretically should not have stirred any emotions in the authorities. And that clash back then, it was very painful for our people. A clash with this reality. Not

everyone Then they understood what this was all about. Why did it happen ? Why suddenly? And why do they stir up emotions? Activities that, as you say, shouldn't stir up emotions. So why does it stir up emotions? I mean, because this Belarusian authoritarianism is spreading wider and wider, like the space of freedom that existed in Belarus was

shrinking all the time, right? Lukashenko simply doesn't like Poles. I mean, apart from that, there's also a natural process that results from something like the government taking control of increasingly larger, like, units, or even parts of social life. And we collided as a result of this, this development of Belarusian authoritarianism. And the fact that over all these years,

despite various attempts, it was never found means, because, as I'm talking about in this period since 2005, there were very different governments in Poland, and each of them attempted to reach an agreement with Alexander Lukashenko and settle the issue of the Polish minority in Belarus. The fact that this issue was never resolved is, in my opinion, already a reason.

A sign and reason for Alexander Lukashenko's special attitude towards Poles. I asked you about what you're fighting for, because I don't believe it either. I know the question from your family probably has a completely different meaning, but I don't believe you did n't have to explain it to your wife, that you did

n't have to explain it to your mother and father, who, after all, also raised you as a Pole, that you didn't have to explain your fight to your children. How did you explain why you did this, because it's a dramatic choice? Yes. When, as you say, you knew that sooner or later you would be arrested for

what you did after the protests in 2020? Even if you didn't know, you could have expected it. I mean, who knew how long it would take? That the punishment would be so severe, that the conditions would be such, and so on. Well, you never know in the end, and one always, always, and yet, a person

paints this reality more optimistically, at least I do, than it looks. And after all, Secondly, there's something about a person being responsible for their words, for their actions, especially if they're in the leadership of an organization and leading people. The Polish Union is made up of thousands of people. I always say that,

but it somehow trickles down to public opinion or the media, and it's forgotten, and the focus is constantly on me, because that's not the right thing to do. However, we should look at the situation in the context of the Polish minority in Belarus, in context, meaning in the context of the situation of the

Polish minority in Belarus. Yes. Yes. I would suggest looking at it, and then, if I look at it in that context, then Polishness is still there, but these values, I mean, in my opinion, they are very valuable, but you didn't have to explain. He's picking on his son because he's the youngest. Mmm.

You didn't have to explain to him why and what you were in prison for, and why. I mean, the son is definitely the most harmed person in this story. And I was aware of that, and I wrote to him in letters that maybe he does n't understand me now, but He'll grow up and understand. And what if you wanted

him to describe your struggle in 10 or 20 years ? I mean, I want him to, I think, I mean, I've always cared that children wouldn't be ashamed, that they would n't have any reason to be ashamed of me, and if they're proud of me , then I'll be happy. And so, that's

my answer to this question. Don't you have some dream scenario where, let's say, you're gone , sooner or later each of us will be gone, hopefully later than sooner, of course, and he'll be asked about you someday, let's assume. However, you're a person who's probably received dozens of awards, you might be asked about you someday,

and someone will try to understand your struggle just like I'm trying to understand it now, so that our viewers can understand it too. So what's your dream answer for him? Listen, let history judge us, and if so, I think that a person has no influence on how they are perceived by history, because what is

liked today, may not be liked tomorrow, and the day after tomorrow, be liked again, and there are several such examples in the world. History. I approach this with humility. You're very evasive. It's me, I mean, but listen, because it's like, well, I have nothing to praise myself for, and it's like, what is most pleasant for me

? Well, that's average, but it's not even about you praising yourself, it's about, but listen, everyone wants their descendants to judge them as highly as possible. Or are you suggesting that I praise myself today, that I build, you know, a small monument or a larger monument to myself? No, I approach it with humility, if

history judges me, so be it. I won't mention the specific name of any historical figure, so that we don't mythologize ourselves here , but I think that many people who chose self-sacrifice in Polish history weren't necessarily—what you said, the son who suffered the most—the best parents. It's a very tragic choice, especially if you yourself are drawn like a moth to a flame toward destruction.

Listen, this trip showed that this isn't the case, that I'm a pessimist. Just to be clear, I spoke with Andrzej the day before we left. It's true that I didn't know he was leaving the next day , but I made sure he was sure he wanted to leave, that he was sure they wouldn't put him back in

prison. And we took a photo. I even said I'd post it when he returned safe and sound, so today, before that conversation, I posted it. Andrzej was right. He was sure he would return and that he wouldn't be arrested. I understand that, I mean, I wasn't entirely sure, but I sort of believed it, well, I

would say, and that belief was confirmed. I'll come back again, because I simply think it's very important, because I saw a lot of comments even under this conversation, I mean, I also saw a lot of comments saying that, as you said right away the same day you left prison and appeared in Poland, that you would be

returning to Belarus, and that Poles don't understand, because they also wrote that if they put you back in prison, that no one would try to catch you again. to pull me out. But the problem is that in 1921, when I refused to leave, I already recognized that the most illustrious Republic of Poland had

done everything it could in my case. I'm not waiting for anything. I didn't expect them to pull me out, and I didn't, like, write to my wife that no one owes us anything . And to say that once again, it was the first time I didn't expect it. I was morally prepared to serve my

sentence, and that was it. And so it is, and you think that it was necessary to act this way because you chose the path of a journalist, because you chose the path of an activist fighting for Polishness in Belarus, because there are thousands of people there. But today, how does that help them?

Well, secondly. Well, it turns out, I mean, generally speaking, it looks like this: if the Polish minority has an organization that, despite all the repression, operates during these years since 2005, and this is precisely the organization is the only organization in the country to survive the waves of repression in 2021. And this is due, among

other things, to the fact that Andżelika Borys and I did not leave, and dozens of people from the second and third row of the organization did not leave either, and that the union did not stop its activities even for a single day, regardless of the fact that there were searches and equipment was taken away. I say, well, the

conversations that I had during this week, well, they described this drama, this drama of people, when when the teacher says that in 2001 they didn't have September 1st , I mean not September 1st, the school year starts later in public schools, but the beginning of the school year in the public school at the

Polish Union. yyy in the country, all the media are writing about it yyy that the Union of Poles is yyy terrorists there and they are inciting nationalist, nationalist, yyy conflicts. Parents and children of students from public schools were summoned for questioning before the investigative committee and they had absolutely no confidence, they, our teachers, that the

children would come and it turned out that the overwhelming majority came to continue their studies at school and when later there was a search, all the equipment was taken away. In the middle of the year, all the equipment was taken away and the school was blocked for some time, but after a week they

resumed operations and again they were absolutely unsure how they were behaving or whether they would bring their children back, and they did bring them back, so what does that mean? Well, this is this drama and unfortunately, or yyy I mean, I don't want to here, I mean, because I could tell so many of these stories

, because it's such a quiet heroism that didn't happen and did n't get to the media, wasn't described by the media, but they he it was, it was and it is thanks to him that the Union of Poles today is the only social organization that is not controlled by the authorities in Belarus.

still exists and that is the value. I think that this value of the organization, the value of the Polish Union, it is, at least in Belarus and in the Polish community, it is very appreciated and all of this is worth your attitude and this and this and this and this is all possible

because the organization is a shield of the minority, and the shield of the organization are its leaders. And this recognition that I have today, he, it means that, for example, if I am in Belarus, I am the first person who will be arrested. As long as I'm free there, it means they won't arrest anyone else. Well, and if it

turns out that, as was the case in 1921, they arrest the leadership of the organization, then these repressions do not go, they do not go further, because it is easier to explain that someone is bad than that an entire nationality is bad. So if the shield in the form of Andrzej Poczobut fell apart

, it would fall apart , but only a second, among others, Andrzej Poczobut. Well, let's be moderate in describing this one. If the shield of, among others, Andrzej Poczobut fell apart, broke, the organization would be weaker. Of course, the organization would probably collapse like the overwhelming majority, meaning all other organizations in Belarus. Well, there are no

Polish organizations in Belarus. That's why it was so important for you not to let yourself be broken. That is, because there were thousands of people on the other side of the wall who stood firm and held on to those values that unite us. Well, generally , Poles are united because it's not even about democracy or

any politics, it's about Polishness. Something that is not outside, but inside a person. Only Polish crimes will probably not happen again. I mean, it's not Polish, but how many Poles live outside the country's borders? So what, are they not Poles anymore or what? Because it's about Polishness, not statehood. Oh, that's what I would say.

So before we open the telephone line, because I would like you to also have the opportunity to ask Andrzej Poczobut questions, I will just ask you now whether it all started with Lukashenko, when it comes to the kind of repression you are talking about. Do you remember the moment when he came to power and you knew there would be

problems? Yes. Um, I mean, Alexander Lukashenko did not hide from the very beginning that he wanted to rebuild the Soviet Union. Well, to put it mildly, the Soviet Union had a negative connotation for me , so I assumed I never voted for Lukashenko and I am not one of his supporters. But remember the Soviet Union, it was

easier for Poles back then? I mean [sigh] I remember the times of the so-called scared communists, when the Soviet Union was slowly falling apart, and those were different times. I mean, I also remember the 1980s, even before the Gorbachev period, and it looked different, but it was already that red totalitarianism that had its

fangs pulled out. This was, however, a much weaker system. And if we talk about the 1990s, when Lukashenko came to power, then the Soviet reconquest, i.e. the reconstruction of authoritarianism and, as it were, the flourishing of this authoritarianism, is a completely different story. Well, if in the 1980s the space of freedom was expanding, then after 1994 the space of

freedom was constantly shrinking and this process continues to this day. [snort] But if it weren't for Lukashenko, if Alexander Milinkevich of blessed memory became the president of Belarus , do you think everything would be different? No, it would look different exactly, but the story is kind of clear. No, Alexander Lukashenko was elected in 1994 in the first

free elections in Belarus. And for 10 years he had strong support from Belarusian society. These questions, which we are also waiting for, the phone is already visible, which were written in the comments, one of them is how the regime is breaking its citizens, not necessarily in prisons, or maybe it is simply buying them, buying their indifference. I

mean, we are talking about a situation where Alexander Lukashenko has been ruling the country from 1994 to the present day, and it was different in different periods. There was a time when loyalty was bought. Today, such an effective argument that has power is force. And so it happened that the society, or rather the nation, is weak

in Belarus, and the state is strong. The state apparatus is strong. He built it. That's true. And this apparatus survived the most severe crisis that occurred in 1920. The device turned out to be durable. We have a phone, so who are we hearing? Hello, Ignacy here. Welcome Ignacy. Good evening. Good evening. I

have such a matter for Mr. Andrzej. You performed recently on the Polska campus, right? Yes, yes. I would like to raise the issue you mentioned, for which I generally bow to you and congratulate you for such courage in your witness of faith, because you mentioned that when you were in prison there, you said that Jesus was only

somewhere there with the Lord and the Lord God. Could you tell us a little more about this ? I mean, it seems to me that it is, it is natural. In prison I met a lot of people who turned to God, but usually it was not lasting. Well, in difficult circumstances, when a

person is alone, it seems that faith provides support in this situation. Another thing is that after leaving these difficult conditions or after these conditions are no longer difficult, then one forgets about it. Well, yes, I don't know if this is the answer to your question, but this is what I observed without a doubt. Well, I was in

very difficult circumstances and faith and faith was something that gave me strength when I was starting to run out of strength . I won't hear Ignacy anymore, but we have another call. Hello, hello. Good evening. Wizczór. Good evening. We hear each other. Good evening. We hear, we hear each other. Good evening, Mr. Retteto. Hello, welcome.

I have a question for our guest, y, namely, this: since we only know this Eastern world from television, from reports, as according to Mr. Poczobut, should each of us, well, not everyone , but we should go, visit, see what it's really like because, apart from the bad things that are happening there, the authorities and so on,

people also live relatively normally, and I'm still wondering whether what's happening now is such a general disapproval of any trips, stays there, etc., or whether it's actually worth going and seeing for yourself what the situation is like . Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I mean, I'll just remind you that

the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Poland advises against coming to Belarus, among other things, because of, I mean, security issues are involved , so I won't be urging anyone to go to Belarus in the current situation , but if the situation were to improve, I think it would be very

useful, very beneficial to visit the Grodzińszczyzna region, to visit the areas that, I mean, the point is that in the east there is a whole, huge piece of Polish history. No Orzeszkowa, Mickiewicz, Marshal Piłsudcki, Kościuszko. Well, I could go on and on listing names that are connected with this land, and in my opinion, this is part of

Polish history, part of Polish culture, and we should not forget about it. I mean, when it comes to this border, which means it's about those areas that remain, are today outside the borders of Poland, but are connected with the history and culture of Poland. In my opinion, it is useful for everyone to visit and see, and it

is also interesting when it comes to visiting authoritarian countries. I mean, I'm interested in the East, not only Belarus, and generally I've been to various post-Soviet countries. I've always been interested in this, and that also means authoritarianism or the behavior of society under authoritarianism is also a very interesting topic, but it's not for

everyone. Not everyone is interested in this. So in my opinion, if the situation improves, if the relations between Poland and Belarus improve, then I strongly encourage everyone to visit the Grodno region, the Grodno region. It is not beautiful, beautiful is the river. And generally, very precisely, it means a home river. And so, um, I kind of

encourage you to visit Belarus then. Thank you very much and we have another call. Uh, good evening. Good evening. Um, this is Kuba from Starachowice. Good evening Kuba. I have a question about Jan Piwnik Panury. First of all, I would like to thank you very much for cultivating the memory of the hero of the Świętokrzyskie Mountains

and the hero of the Lord of the Earth. And I have a question about the memorial sites of Jan Piwnik Ponury in Belarus. Among other things, about the monument to the Wiewłasz family or about the burial place in the cemetery in Wawiórka. Is there anything still left there? whether it has already been completely

destroyed by the regime. Thank you very much. All right. This means that the quarters in the squirrel are unchanged, there are soldiers and thank God they did not stay, these graves were not desecrated. They exist in the form in which they existed before 21 . The monument was unfortunately removed. The monument means, well, because it was

established at the place of the death of the grim. Today this place is called Bogdany, and at the time when he died, it was the area of Jewłaszy. Yes, yes, that's what it was called. It is a few kilometers from Jwłasze itself, but all this was then called the area around Jwłasze. Hence the difference

that today we say he died in Bogdany, but everywhere it is written that he died in Jewłasze. Unfortunately, this monument does not exist. It was one of the few Home Army monuments that existed in Belarus. Thank you very much and we have another call, ma'am. We are listening. Good morning. Good morning. Um, I'm

calling with such a thought, one thought, because I had the opportunity to be in Belarus, uh, in Grodno, exactly, uh, many years ago and I think and in general I also met, uh, people in the Polish Association and I think that we, as Poles, are a bit unable to understand them fully, because I have the

impression that Poles in Belarus, maybe this is not the right way to start, but they love Poland more than Poles. We Poles, it's true that this kind of heritage, this kind of passing on of these values, holidays and so on, is simply on a totally different level than we have here. And I think this is something that makes it

very, very difficult for you to understand his behavior, his decisions, and this is just my opinion. And this question is for Mr. Andrzej. How does he see the future of this Polish Union, how will it develop, in what direction is it heading, because I also know that more and more people are leaving, more and more

people are being intimidated, or do they simply prefer to stay where they are, and what will it be like, how does he see that future? Thank you very much. Thank you very much. The lady took away part of my question because I wanted to ask you if you have heard that you care about Polishness

more than Poles in Poland? I mean, well, in my opinion, it's a very strong compliment, but I mean, when it comes to the future of Poles in Belarus, this is how I would put it, Poles in Belarus survived the Stalinist times, so they will survive these present times as well. I hope that the

most difficult period, I want to believe that the most difficult period is behind us, that now it will be easier, that the Union of Poles will finally be legalized and that it will be able to carry out its activities, because this activity is not aimed against the Belarusian state and, I mean, it

is not harmful to the Belarusian state, as I understand the values of the Belarusian state. You are not calling for a revision of the borders. It means exactly that, that is, for so many years the Union of Poles has been very carefully watched, spied on and so on. And it turned out that there was no

quote of any of the organization's leaders calling for a change in the boundaries or that I had ever questioned those boundaries. So the boundaries are what they are. Well, someone will say it's good, someone will say it's bad, but nevertheless they are a fact and they are valid. These are state borders and no one thinks of

changing them. But when it comes to the situation of the Polish minority, in my opinion, the situation in Belarus is not good, and I mean, very very, very mildly, and it should be subject to legal action. I believe she will improve. And the fact that you managed to open a school in Vawkavysk now that you were in

Belarus , is that a good sign? Yes, yes, this is a sign that the number of children who are interested in learning the Polish language, in learning Polish culture, that it is growing, that new places of education are opening, that the number of children who learn Polish is growing and that this Polishness does

not have to die in Belarus. We have another call. I suggest that in addition to this phone call we answer two more calls. We are listening. Good evening. Good morning. Good evening. My name is Maria and I would like to ask Mr. Andrzej such questions. You defend the Polish minority in Belarus. This is such an honorable goal. But

I have a question. Are you also going to defend the rights of your fellow citizens, I mean Belarusians, citizens of Belarus in Poland, because it is known that Belarusians in Poland are also having a lot of problems right now due to sanctions, legalization, closing bank accounts and they cannot even function normally. I mean working, paying for

housing loans and so on because they have Belarusian passports and do not have, for example, issued decisions for residence cards. Do you also intend to help your fellow citizens here in Poland? That's my question. Thank you. Thank you very much. I spoke out on this matter. After all, together with Amnesti International, we

asked the Polish authorities to provide assistance to Belarusian citizens who find themselves in a difficult situation for political reasons. So here my actions are very limited. In my opinion, I did what I should have done and I hope that this voice will be heard and that the issues you mentioned will be resolved.

Thank you very much. While waiting for this next call, I will repeat two more calls, we will answer, then I will ask you one more question, actually I will read out one more of the questions that I have written down from those written earlier. What postulate or goal do you think is realistic at this point? Because, of

course, the maximum goal is a democratic Belarus, independent of Russia, which emerges from the clutches, is an independent state and functions in peace, which Belarusians so often talk about. What do you think is the realistic goal? So the goal of the Union of Poles is for the Polish minority organization to be legal, for children who

want to learn their native language to be able to learn their native language, for places of national remembrance to exist normally, and for Polish culture to develop in Belarus. And these goals are the most important. Well, when it comes to big, high, grand politics, well, Belarusians have a lot of leaders who deal with it there. I, we as a union, deal with

the issue of Poland's minorities. We have this penultimate phone call. Good evening. Good evening. Peter Do. Good evening, ladies. A question for Mr. Andrzej. How are Poles perceived in Belarus and is there a difference in the perception of Poles in places where there is simply a large Polish minority and where there is simply a pure Belarusian population

? Is there any difference, or is it just how we as Poles are perceived there? Thank you very much and best regards. Thank you and best regards. And when it comes to the perception of Poland and Poles, of course, in these border areas or in areas where a large number of Poles live, all these

issues that are raised by Belarusian propaganda, they do not have such a strong impact. And the situation looks different if we talk about the situation in the eastern regions, where there are very few Poles, where the dominant population is less likely to travel to Poland or has less contact with Poland, then it is natural that there will be various

bleak scenarios of relations or a bleak image of Poland, Poles, Poland as a state. Well, there he is more like the one who reaches into the consciousness of the local population. So, but it was not only like this now, but yes, it was always like this. Here, near the border, where I come from, it's hard to

convince anyone that Poles have any aggressive plans towards Belarus, because people go to Poland, they have contacts, the Polish minority has families on both sides of the border, and it's hard to convince people that Poland is an aggressive country, that Poland has any military plans towards Belarus. Well, further away, further away people believe in it more.

And we have one last call. Good evening. Good evening. Good evening. We are listening. Mateusz Ząbrowy. I have such a question. Several times I came across such, I don't know how to put it, such, such articles somewhere in the Belarusian media about Adam Mickiewicz, Liida, about Orzeszków. I wanted to ask if it is true that Belarusian propaganda is

somehow stealing our national icons, or is it just nonsense? Thank you. Thank you very much. I mean, it has changed over the years, because in the early 1990s the thesis was popular that everyone born in Belarus was Belarusian. Accordingly, Adam Mickiewicz is Belarusian, and today, due to the fact that the Russian point of view dominates in Belarus, there is no

problem in claiming that Adam Mickiewicz is Belarusian. I don't want him. Exactly. Because the government has Pushkin and Pushkin is quite enough for the Belarusian government. But among Belarusians, sorry to add to this question, I have heard more than once that Adam Mickiewicz is Belarusian, so maybe the authorities don't, but the society

feels it. I mean, certainly the part of society that refers to, well, Belarusianness in the sense of, well, language, culture, and so on, has this kind of point of view that there Kościuszko was Belarusian, there somehow only Dzerzhinsky was Polish, I don't know why it didn't turn out [snort] out of all of them that

these people didn't necessarily want Dzerzhinsky, right? Because, because the authorities would probably like to make Dzerzhinsky a Belarusian, but these are the people you're talking about, well, not Dzerzhinsky, but Mickiewicz. And Kościuszko too. Kapuściński was also born in Belarus. Ryszard Kapuściński. Yes. Please tell me, if we are talking for a long time anyway, haven't I and our viewers

asked you something that you would really like to talk about? Listen, I've had so many questions since I crossed the border on April 28th, so I think I've answered all of them, which ones I'd like to, which stories, which list of questions are exhausted, because I thought maybe there was a gap somewhere.

No, I think, I think I answered all the questions, I mean during this period, because there were meetings and people asked questions directly and generally I am quite an open and very open person. Do you have enough strength even for what is admirable? I mean, I don't know, yeah, that's just how I am, but

that, but in my opinion I answered all the questions. I have two more. Okay, okay, let's move on. First, two at the end and we're saying goodbye . First, what are your plans now and how do you see your future, assuming that you give Belarusian prisons a wide berth? I mean, I'm going to the United States,

I have a whole series of meetings there, and it's especially important for me now that this visit is positive, that what I've been doing since leaving prison is being the voice of the union of Poles in Belarus, the Polish minority in Belarus. And this voice, anyone who wants to listen to this voice, well, I'm

talking to everyone now. If they want to hear this voice in the United States as well, then I am most interested in this and I am interested in being effective in this, especially since it is the Americans who are talking to Lukashenko and are effective in doing so. That's true. The United States, as far as the

future is concerned, right? Well, I'm already assuming that you function a bit differently than in prison and you don't live for the day. I mean, you know, I also said that I'm writing a book, I want to tell this story and I want, I also need to tell this story. I need to

get everything out of me and go to therapy, and I have the feeling that once I put a full stop to it , this will be the end of the prison story, right? But will you write from here, or will you write from there in Belarus? I will live in Belarus permanently, and I will

also travel, but this is how my life has always been, I travel a lot. So [snort] you don't intend to give up on returning to Belarus after all? No, of course not. Moreover, if there is a need for me to be present at some point for the Union of Poles there, I will go there immediately

and you will continue writing about Belarus, just as you wrote before the verdict. The problem is that there is no journalism in Belarus today, among other things, because in the conditions of, uh, unfinished totalitarianism, without five minutes of totalitarianism, there is no independent journalism. It's like political science and Sovietology. Because in Belarus today we have Sovietology. Well, that

's not what interests me. On the one hand, on the other hand, since 2018 I have been dealing more with historical topics and I intend to continue dealing with these topics. For which topics were you ultimately sentenced? Yes. Well, you can put it that way, but this topic is very important and that's what I will be

dealing with. i.e. commemorating Polishness in Belarus. History of Poles in Belarus. Exactly. Because just to clarify, the sentence you finally heard in 2023 was one thing: incitement to hatred, and here it was supposed to be a matter of glorifying the Home Army, which the Belarusian authorities consider a terrorist organization. Yes. That was it, and the second thing was that

you were calling for sanctions to be imposed on, but with sanctions it wasn't like that. This message did not correspond to what was happening in court. And it was interesting because the information that I was supposedly on trial for calling for sanctions was released through the state media, it was made public, and

then I turned to the court because my lawyer had just shown me a recording of a Belarusian news program. I officially [clear throat] appealed to the court that there was such a report in the state media and that I might be on trial for something else that was not included in the indictment. Um,

but the court said that it is the indictment that is binding here, not what is on state television. And from that moment on, this issue was not repeated, but because it became widely known then, sometimes it is repeated out of the blue by independent media, but it does not correspond to reality. it was about

actions, about inciting to actions that are intended to harm the security of Belarus. Among other things, it was about the fact that I was allegedly involved in activities aimed at annexing half of Belarus to Poland and that it was an international conspiracy, and I was the only person who changed names, was mentioned in this conspiracy, and the

rest were not established by the KGB, the Investigative Committee and all the other law enforcement agencies in Borussia. I haven't heard you say that. I mean, but nevertheless I talked about it in one of the interviews, but I'm repeating it again. But the intelligence the KGB referred to was also lost . Yes.

Well, I mean, not you if, and I understood something else. I understood that you didn't hear me talking about it. I didn't tell anymore. No, no, I have never heard you call for the annexation of part of Belarus. Exactly. But, but it was also there that there is no such statement, but, but there are

experts who say that all activity was subordinated to this. Iron Man, that's what they called you here when you were behind iron bars. Besides, I said the same thing about you. Do you feel like an iron man? No, absolutely. And I try to avoid all these epithets, [snort] even if others want to call you that.

[sigh] Well, maybe they would like to call it something else, it would be nice. Well, really, it seems like an exaggeration. So what would you like to be called? Means name, surname. Well, the term shield was used, you know how. I mean, it's such a figurative expression, but but this but this meant as if it

allows us to understand how it functions in the Polish minority, the Union of Poles and so on. So this iron man is an extra burden that you carry on your back. I mean, I always try to avoid such strong epithets and I mean, I generally don't like it when I write, I mean,

you've certainly read my texts. I try not to overdo it with such strong epithets. You are writing about others, not about yourself now. Well, but even now you will write about yourself. I will certainly not use such epithets. But don't take this right away from us. All right. Andrzej Poczobut, but I won't introduce

you like that. Andrzej Poczobut, a journalist first and foremost, an activist of the Union of Poles in Belarus, fighting to ensure that Polishness and Polish history in Belarus do not perish despite difficult conditions. was a guest of the zero hour. Andrzej, thank you very much for your time and I hope that you will

gradually achieve the goals you set for yourself . Thank you. Thank you very much. Good night. [music]

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